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	<title>Comments on: The funniest thing on the internet</title>
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	<link>http://heracliteanfire.net/2007/08/22/the-funniest-thing-on-the-internet/</link>
	<description>Harry Rutherford's Blog</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
	
		<item>
		<title>By: Harry</title>
		<link>http://heracliteanfire.net/2007/08/22/the-funniest-thing-on-the-internet/#comment-17788</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heracliteanfire.net/archives/1453#comment-17788</guid>
		<description>"When the Pre-Raphaelites, reacting against the dynamism, pace and chaos of the C19, chose to paint medieval settings of great stillness, detail and complexity of composition, were they being escapist or utopian, proposing an alternative social ideal? Or, the easy answer, both?"

Perhaps utopianism is inherently escapist.

The whole idea of a cultural pulse reeks of hindsight, of course. We say in retrospect that a certain kind of art was right for a historical moment because we value the work produced. Coming up with a justification for &lt;i&gt;why&lt;/i&gt; it was right for that moment is the easy bit. In which case there's a simpler explanation for any inadequacies of the PRB: they just weren't good enough. If they'd just had one or two painters capable of doing great things with the material, then we [I] would look back at them differently.

It's not that I have a problem with all Victorian medievalism; I took the tour of the Houses of Parliament last year, and while I can't say I'm entirely comfortable with the symbolism of building a parliament building in a medieval style, there's no doubt that it's a magnificent piece of work. It's tempting, and possibly equally specious, to make another sweeping generalisation and say they Victorians just weren't very good at tasteful and elegant; they were at their best (and worst) when they were loud and brash. The Pre-Raphaelites aimed for elegant and only managed fey and kitschy.

Dave: 

I thought of the neo-formalists myself while I was writing this. And much as I like formal poetry myself, I do think that a lot of the rhetoric associated with the movement is deeply peculiar and more likely to prevent people writing good poems than enable it, because it's too easy to make a rejection of contemporary poetry into a rejection of contemporariness, and to inflate the importance of rhyme and metre over everything else that makes up a good poem.

Whether neo-formalist poets &lt;i&gt;actually&lt;/i&gt; produce more or less good poems per thousand than their avant-garde and mainstream counterparts is probably impossible to measure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;When the Pre-Raphaelites, reacting against the dynamism, pace and chaos of the C19, chose to paint medieval settings of great stillness, detail and complexity of composition, were they being escapist or utopian, proposing an alternative social ideal? Or, the easy answer, both?&#8221;</p>
<p>Perhaps utopianism is inherently escapist.</p>
<p>The whole idea of a cultural pulse reeks of hindsight, of course. We say in retrospect that a certain kind of art was right for a historical moment because we value the work produced. Coming up with a justification for <i>why</i> it was right for that moment is the easy bit. In which case there&#8217;s a simpler explanation for any inadequacies of the PRB: they just weren&#8217;t good enough. If they&#8217;d just had one or two painters capable of doing great things with the material, then we [I] would look back at them differently.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not that I have a problem with all Victorian medievalism; I took the tour of the Houses of Parliament last year, and while I can&#8217;t say I&#8217;m entirely comfortable with the symbolism of building a parliament building in a medieval style, there&#8217;s no doubt that it&#8217;s a magnificent piece of work. It&#8217;s tempting, and possibly equally specious, to make another sweeping generalisation and say they Victorians just weren&#8217;t very good at tasteful and elegant; they were at their best (and worst) when they were loud and brash. The Pre-Raphaelites aimed for elegant and only managed fey and kitschy.</p>
<p>Dave: </p>
<p>I thought of the neo-formalists myself while I was writing this. And much as I like formal poetry myself, I do think that a lot of the rhetoric associated with the movement is deeply peculiar and more likely to prevent people writing good poems than enable it, because it&#8217;s too easy to make a rejection of contemporary poetry into a rejection of contemporariness, and to inflate the importance of rhyme and metre over everything else that makes up a good poem.</p>
<p>Whether neo-formalist poets <i>actually</i> produce more or less good poems per thousand than their avant-garde and mainstream counterparts is probably impossible to measure.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://heracliteanfire.net/2007/08/22/the-funniest-thing-on-the-internet/#comment-17787</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 18:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heracliteanfire.net/archives/1453#comment-17787</guid>
		<description>The Romantic revolt, of which the Pre-Rahaelites were a part, was an understandable and authentic response to the social upheaveals and altered landscapes of the Industrial Revolution. But thankfully it wasn't the only reaction! The ARC's rhetoric reminds me a lot of the polemics from the neo-formalist poets here in the U.S., some of whom are actually quite good. (They've had the sense to move toward less regular rhythms and more frequent enjambment than, say, Tennyson.) I just don't understand why there has to be a one best way of painting or writing poetry. I don't happen to like a lot of the high modernist poets - much of the work of Pound, Eliot, Stevens, Mina Loy and Marianne Moore strikes me as arid and over-intellectual. And from my perspective as a greenie, the urban-technological utopianism of the early modernist movement in art and architecture is pretty repugnant. But then agan, as you say, the art we remember is generally the stuff that reflects the zeitgeist. The fact that we have seen so many gifted nature poets emerge in the last thirty years, for example, simply reflects the growth of the modern (postmodern?) ecological consciousness.

Anyway, that's a little off-topic. Thanks for a fun post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Romantic revolt, of which the Pre-Rahaelites were a part, was an understandable and authentic response to the social upheaveals and altered landscapes of the Industrial Revolution. But thankfully it wasn&#8217;t the only reaction! The ARC&#8217;s rhetoric reminds me a lot of the polemics from the neo-formalist poets here in the U.S., some of whom are actually quite good. (They&#8217;ve had the sense to move toward less regular rhythms and more frequent enjambment than, say, Tennyson.) I just don&#8217;t understand why there has to be a one best way of painting or writing poetry. I don&#8217;t happen to like a lot of the high modernist poets - much of the work of Pound, Eliot, Stevens, Mina Loy and Marianne Moore strikes me as arid and over-intellectual. And from my perspective as a greenie, the urban-technological utopianism of the early modernist movement in art and architecture is pretty repugnant. But then agan, as you say, the art we remember is generally the stuff that reflects the zeitgeist. The fact that we have seen so many gifted nature poets emerge in the last thirty years, for example, simply reflects the growth of the modern (postmodern?) ecological consciousness.</p>
<p>Anyway, that&#8217;s a little off-topic. Thanks for a fun post.</p>
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		<title>By: Jee Leong</title>
		<link>http://heracliteanfire.net/2007/08/22/the-funniest-thing-on-the-internet/#comment-17786</link>
		<dc:creator>Jee Leong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heracliteanfire.net/archives/1453#comment-17786</guid>
		<description>Some weeks ago, I liked the cover of a library book, googled it, and stumbled on ARC. The cover was a detail from Bourgeureau's "Idyll." I used the painting as a screen-saver for a while, but soon got tired of it, and took it down. Is that a non-verbal criticism of Bourgeureau and his school of French academic painting? 

I agree with your general argument, about the need for artists to respond to the pulse of their age, and not to hide behind a traditional style. Otherwise they risk becoming irrelevant, parodic, or sterile. 

However, I wonder if there is another reading of the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood. The Wikipedia entry gives some idea of their plan to reform their age's artistic method and taste; they did not think of themselves as conservative. In reaching back to medieval spiritual and artistic values, they were responding/reacting to what they saw was the age's drive towards mechanization and materialism. 

My very imperfect analogy is this: Matisse responded to the wars and violence of his time by painting oases of serenity (for instance, Red Studio), unlike Picasso who confronted the barbarism head-on. Is Matisse necessarily the smaller artist because of this?

When the Pre-Raphaelites, reacting against the dynamism, pace and chaos of the C19, chose to paint medieval settings of great stillness, detail and complexity of composition, were they being escapist or utopian, proposing an alternative social ideal? Or, the easy answer, both?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some weeks ago, I liked the cover of a library book, googled it, and stumbled on ARC. The cover was a detail from Bourgeureau&#8217;s &#8220;Idyll.&#8221; I used the painting as a screen-saver for a while, but soon got tired of it, and took it down. Is that a non-verbal criticism of Bourgeureau and his school of French academic painting? </p>
<p>I agree with your general argument, about the need for artists to respond to the pulse of their age, and not to hide behind a traditional style. Otherwise they risk becoming irrelevant, parodic, or sterile. </p>
<p>However, I wonder if there is another reading of the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood. The Wikipedia entry gives some idea of their plan to reform their age&#8217;s artistic method and taste; they did not think of themselves as conservative. In reaching back to medieval spiritual and artistic values, they were responding/reacting to what they saw was the age&#8217;s drive towards mechanization and materialism. </p>
<p>My very imperfect analogy is this: Matisse responded to the wars and violence of his time by painting oases of serenity (for instance, Red Studio), unlike Picasso who confronted the barbarism head-on. Is Matisse necessarily the smaller artist because of this?</p>
<p>When the Pre-Raphaelites, reacting against the dynamism, pace and chaos of the C19, chose to paint medieval settings of great stillness, detail and complexity of composition, were they being escapist or utopian, proposing an alternative social ideal? Or, the easy answer, both?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Harry</title>
		<link>http://heracliteanfire.net/2007/08/22/the-funniest-thing-on-the-internet/#comment-17785</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heracliteanfire.net/archives/1453#comment-17785</guid>
		<description>Oh, don't be such a kill-joy.

I do appreciate that I glibly skipped past a serious argument about art, access and power which merits rather more thoughtful commentary. 

Despite which, I think there's plenty about the Art Renewal Center that makes it a fair target for mockery. So *brrrrrrrr-rrp* to you to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, don&#8217;t be such a kill-joy.</p>
<p>I do appreciate that I glibly skipped past a serious argument about art, access and power which merits rather more thoughtful commentary. </p>
<p>Despite which, I think there&#8217;s plenty about the Art Renewal Center that makes it a fair target for mockery. So *brrrrrrrr-rrp* to you to.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Richard Hoffman</title>
		<link>http://heracliteanfire.net/2007/08/22/the-funniest-thing-on-the-internet/#comment-17784</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Hoffman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heracliteanfire.net/archives/1453#comment-17784</guid>
		<description>It isn't illegal to make independent films either, and no goons are going to knock down your door if you do, but try to get a film distributed, or even screened. It takes, well, money and power. If you want to understand how money and power operated to skew tastes in both the academy and the general public when it comes to art and literature, read Frances Stonor Saunders exhaustively researched and undisputed The Cultural Cold War, which was published in England by Granta Books under the better title: Who Paid the Piper? The CIA and the Cultural Cold War.

It is about access. About "greenlighting" and supporting certain kinds of work (containing certain kinds of aesthetic/political content) and starving others. It's about soft censorship and control by those who have the — sorry to be redundant — money and power.

Your sneering tone is precisely the tool used to prejudge works that are not "allowed in" to galleries, magazines, museums. Do you think that the products of artists; i.e. culture itself, is so powerless that rulers would not attempt to control it? Read a little bit of history, just a little bit. Or is your point "It can't happen here?" Fact is, it already has. Read Stonor Saunders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It isn&#8217;t illegal to make independent films either, and no goons are going to knock down your door if you do, but try to get a film distributed, or even screened. It takes, well, money and power. If you want to understand how money and power operated to skew tastes in both the academy and the general public when it comes to art and literature, read Frances Stonor Saunders exhaustively researched and undisputed The Cultural Cold War, which was published in England by Granta Books under the better title: Who Paid the Piper? The CIA and the Cultural Cold War.</p>
<p>It is about access. About &#8220;greenlighting&#8221; and supporting certain kinds of work (containing certain kinds of aesthetic/political content) and starving others. It&#8217;s about soft censorship and control by those who have the — sorry to be redundant — money and power.</p>
<p>Your sneering tone is precisely the tool used to prejudge works that are not &#8220;allowed in&#8221; to galleries, magazines, museums. Do you think that the products of artists; i.e. culture itself, is so powerless that rulers would not attempt to control it? Read a little bit of history, just a little bit. Or is your point &#8220;It can&#8217;t happen here?&#8221; Fact is, it already has. Read Stonor Saunders.</p>
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